So there’s a bit of debate raging on the Internet about an article by Keith Owen, a Pedro Sauer black belt called Can Women Really Handle Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu?
Spoiler alert: Here was my face as I read the article. But wait – there’s actually a professional reason for this, in addition to the emotional one! Read on!
Not surprisingly, there’s a “healthy debate” over on Reddit about the article, with 143 comments and counting. Similarly, there’s a reaction piece called Women Can Handle Brazilian Jiu Jitsu!
Edited to add more related posts: the Bullshido thread on this, Reeseny’s post on it, SheBeast’s article agreeing with him, Inner BJJ’s take on it, A Skirt on the Mat’s post with the great 300 quote “Clearly you don’t know our women.”
Leaahh wrote a great article including the line “Stop making me responsible for my entire gender.”
There are two levels I believe need to be addressed:
The first part is more reactionary than the second, because I am responding personally and a more emotionally to the sexism – though I sincerely tried to avoid snarkiness, and the second part is me responding professionally to his teaching.
The Sexism
I sincerely wonder if he was trying to issue a challenge to women to stay in jiu jitsu and if he hoped they would respond personally by staying in or by posting CHALLENGE ACCEPTED. Unfortunately, this was NOT my reaction, nor the reaction of any of the women I know who read it.
Yeah, not so much.
The title clearly sets a tone and tells me it’s all about my gender and whether we can hack it in this sport. So the title has me ready to be angry and wanting to read the article, which is clever – after all, get a bit of controversy and you get more readers. However, the sexist language does not stop there. I’ve put his words in italics and my comments in regular print. Again, his article is here.
The ladies always stay for a short time but they ultimately quit. Guys also will try this out and find it’s not for them. It’s not uncommon for men to quit, and as other ladies have said, the women stand out more because they’re more unusual, so it’s more obvious they’ve quit. But okay…let’s concede this point about his gym.
I treat the women students like any other male student . . . I never force them to roll until they are comfortable. So which is it? Do you treat them alike or different. You don’t “force” women to roll, but do you “force” men to roll? It is entirely possible that the women who join would have been absolutely fine rolling with men until you put out there that they don’t “have to” roll. Do you tell men they don’t have to roll if they don’t want to, or is there an expectation that everyone except women have to participate fully in class. If so, you’ve set up your gym in a way that means you don’t treat women like a full teammate, but instead as someone who must be coddled. Anyone should be able to sit out if they feel uncomfortable, but please don’t treat women with kid gloves.
I find this disheartening because if any women can get a black belt, it’s from me. This sentence struck me as extremely sexist. Are your standards so low that if a woman hangs around your gym long enough that they’ll get one by virtue of them being a woman? Is this the same for the men? If not – that’s sexist. [Note: It’s been pointed out that this is a logical fallacy – and I concur that there are more ways to read into this, but this was my flawed feeling as I read it.]
I have given out a number of blue belts to women as a matter of fact. Congratulations – you’ve assessed some students as being at blue belt level, as every instructor should do. You do this for the men students as well, yes? So why call attention to it? To point out that you’re not being sexist?
It then makes me want to do a male only class because we don’t want to waste time on someone who is just going to quit even though we are excited to have her and we try to take care of her and make her feel welcome. This is what really enraged me. It’s saying “Gosh darn it, I care so much for the wimmins but they frustrate me so dang bad that I wanna toss out the whole baby with the bathwater because I don’t actually want to address the real problem.”
My male students are usually married and take a bit of a risk with their spouses by wrestling around with the opposite sex. The author says this, but later in the article says Your significant other has to be comfortable with you being in a class full of men. There is a strange discrepancy here. I wonder if he’s conveying to the women that he feels they are endangering their teammates’ marriages, but that their own boyfriends need to simply deal with it. Does he convey to the men how glad he is that they are willing to “risk their spouses?” If so, it may very well be subtly or not so subtly conveyed to the women that the men feel this way. I know I’d feel incredibly uncomfortable if I knew my coach felt this way.
Let me fix this article. I’ve crossed out things, added my own words in italics. I think it makes the article better. Note: This is only 3 paragraphs of the original article.
Can Women White Belts Really Handle Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?
Make no mistake, I WANT women white belts in my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu program. The problem is that they never seem to stick. They will even come in and DEMAND to try it out. I politely let them know what BJJ is and what it’s all about up front. I let them know that they will be grappling with men and women. Many of them say they understand, but when they get on the mat and I’m not sure they really do.
My guys students are very nice, respectable gentlemen people (some schools are not) and treat the ladieseach other with respect (or I’ll kill them kick them out of the gym). I treat the women students like any other male student, everyone equally, having someone show them the positions of Jiu-Jitsu and showing them basic moves. They know they will typically be the only ladies in the class. I never force them to roll until they are comfortable. I let the ladies my students know that they can ALWAYS confide in me if a man someone does something that makes them feel uncomfortable. I have never had a complaint! The ladies white belts always stay for a short time but they ultimately quit. Some of them have gotten pregnant (from their husbands or boyfriends)prioritized their families, some move and some just find out, just like the men that it’s very hard to do Jiu-Jitsu (even though my class is very technical) and they simply quit.
I find this disheartening because if any women one can get a black belt, it’s from me. I have given out a number of blue belts to women my students as a matter of fact. It then makes me want to do a male an upper belts only class because we don’t want to waste time on someone who is just going to quit even though we are excited to have her them and we try to take care of her them and make her them feel welcome. My male students are usually married and take a bit of a risk with their spouses by wrestling around with the opposite sex. But I always seem to accept women white belts into the fold and try to do my best hoping that they will be the kind of person that can handle the challenge of Jiu-Jitsu.
Ultimately this article should be more about WHITE BELTS than about women specifically. He wants higher retention rates. However, after reading his article, I’m NOT shocked that women aren’t staying. Here’s what I read into this –
1. He treats women differently than men. Women are not expected to roll with the men. He feels that men rolling with women puts the men’s relationships at risk. I can all but guarantee this comes through loud and clear to his students. He is frustrated about women quitting, so if a woman walks through the door, in his eyes she represents ALL THE WIMMINS.
2. There is no personal responsibility taken. He is blaming his students rather than examining what he is doing. He is loudly defending his actions. I heard once that the only things all of your exes have in common is YOU. If I’m a teacher and all my male students are leaving, I can choose to believe OMG MEN ARE SO SUCKY AND QUIT THEY HAVE NO HEART or I can examine my own behavior, which leads into the second half: the professional aspect of this.
The Teaching Aspect
The problem is, there exists a gap between what teachers think they are doing and what they are actually doing. If you are a teacher whose female students are quitting in droves, I suggest a few points:
1. Keep actual records. Rather than GUESSING that women are quitting more, get some statistics. Out of the 25 guys who started last month, how many of them quit after a month? Two months? Out of the 5 women who started last month, how many of them quit after a month? Two months? If 15/25 guys quit within the first 2 months – that’s 60%. If 2/5 women quit, that’s 40%. Know your real numbers rather than going by how it feels. It may all be in your head.
2. Observe your behavior. This should be a neutral thing and no judgments put on it. Keep a journal. During class examine how you interact with the women vs the men. After instructing a woman ask yourself if there was something you did differently because they were a woman. Do you flirt? Do you use sexist language? Do you call attention to the fact that they are women? Do you talk to them exactly the same way as you talk to men or do you find yourself mentioning their looks/gis/bodies?
3. Ask a neutral party to observe your behavior. This one is tricky and potentially embarrassing. You need to cultivate a situation where they’ll tell you the truth. Ask them to observe how the women vs men are treated, how you speak to the students, how you roll with the students, your eye contact, language, etc.
4. Observe how the teammates interact with one another. Do they treat women the same as the men? Better? Worse? Do they interact with her as frequently? Does she stand off by herself? Does she have trouble finding a partner or is she being stared at and people are jumping at the chance to be her partner?
5. Note the atmosphere. Would you feel comfortable if you invited your sister/mother/girlfriend/grandmother to your gym? Is it clean? Is it well lit? Is there a place for them to change? Do people swear a lot or is it very rough?
6. Get feedback from your students. Especially the ones who quit. Have a sit down and ask some neutral questions. Note that how you ask may influence their answers. Do not react with anger or frustration or defensiveness or you will shut down all their answers. I strongly recommend reading NonViolent Communication if you decide to do this because it will give you tips on how to listen empathetically and how to hear with an open mind.
7. Read a book on Reflective Teaching. You are essentially a language teacher if you teach jiu jitsu. Jiu Jitsu is a foreign language for the body. Reading these will definitely impact how you teach. I highly recommend Thomas Farrell’s articles or books or websites. Here are some suggestions:
- Reflective Practice in Action: A Case Study of a Writing Teacher’s
Reflections on Practice by Thomas S. C. Farrell - Practice Teaching: a Reflective Approach by Thomas S. C. Farrell and Jack C. Richards
- Reflective Teaching in Second Language Classrooms by Jack C. Richards and Charles Lockhart
Ultimately, teachers need to take responsibility for their own actions and how they influence and impact others, and while we may think we’re super awesome, our students may not feel the same way. You will have both men and women who start and quit – jiu jitsu is not for everyone. But if you are specifically interested in retention rates of women, it may very likely be time to examine what is actually going on in your school, and do to that exploration with an open mind and open heart and be willing to change and not be defensive about it.
At my gym, the instructor pairs everyone up for everything. This sometimes includes them choosing our drilling partners, but for every single round of sparring the instructor picks partners for everyone and everyone rotates. This means a different partner every round. The cool thing is that it avoids the uncomfortable feeling women sometimes get that boys don’t want to spar with them.
I’ll admit – I more often than not get partnered (for drilling) with the best guy in class or the white belt women. But I don’t mind – after all, I have the most advanced partner or I’m helping out another woman.
The guys roll with me and don’t refuse if I ask to roll (well, one did once). They don’t roll with me terribly differently than they do with the other guys. They don’t go limp and have me just practice my moves. They don’t get angry if I submit them. They don’t (afaik) mock the other guys for rolling with me.
In other words, I feel like a full teammate. Period.
I’m curious as to your thoughts on this subject. What was your reaction to the article? Have you found this true at your gym? If you knew women who quit – why did they quit? If you are a woman who quit or is thinking about it – why?
😉
I LOVE YOU! <3
So well written :3
Awww – thanks!
Your rebuttal is awesome. You dissected the offending post with surgical precision 🙂
Thanks. I’m glad I took time to revise it – the first version was much snarkier and less a dissection and more a murder.
This is great! I have been training in BJJ for a little over two years now and I did think a lot about quitting in the beginning. My school was very friendly and welcoming but, as is the case in most schools, there were not a lot of women there. However, my discouragement had more to do with how hard jiujitsu was in the beginning than with being female. I am glad I stuck it out. You are right, this article should be about white belts in general. I think it is tough for everyone in the beginning.
I agree, the biggest problem with getting women in the door is that there aren’t enough women in the door. I haven’t found a gym that’s actively sexist or racist (I consider them to be virtually the same), but if you peek in the window and only see a bunch of white males cuddling viciously with each other, it’s going to be less appealing than seeing a diverse group of people training together (unless you happen to match the white male demographic, or whatever you see in that particular gym).
As far as I’m concerned, once you’re on the mat you’re just another body to grapple with. How do we make gyms more appealing to women who haven’t made the decision to join, though?
Hey Jesse! Thanks for the reply. Honestly, there are a few articles out there that discuss it, and the conversation is VERY GOOD.
For example:
Women in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: A Guide for Dudes
The Jiu Jitsu Sisterhood
How to Get More Women into Grappling
Here’s a TheFightworksPodcast episode about it
The difference – one comes into it blaming gender, the others attempt to have a serious, open talk about it. There is a way to talk about differences between men and women in a way that is respectful and open and a way that is negative and gender-blaming.
I do think there’s a valid conversation about how to attract AND retain female students. However, the points he raised were so steeped in negative language that it made it difficult to focus on that.
I never had the quitting bug because I had SUPER low expectations of myself – I was so happy just coming to class. That worked well for me – I wanted to get some exercise and was getting it. It wasn’t until I got on the Internet that I realized people had negative attitudes toward women in this sport. I suppose I should have realized that. I just thought jiu jitsu was a super cool sport and I was excited to have found it. The idea that “omg you’re in a boy’s club” wasn’t a thought that originated from me – but then again, I always did primarily male-dominated hobbies, such as read comics, play computer games, Magic the Gathering, etc.
WOW, WOW, WOW, this hits the nail exactly on the head!! Had my teachers told me I didn’t “have to roll with the guys” I am not sure I ever would have moved past that initial anxiety that I think all white belts have. My teachers called me out if I didn’t roll and told me to get back on the mat the second I tried to leave a little bit early in those early days. It’s about respect, if you are saying guys are endangering their relationships to roll with a girl (really? REALLLLLY?) than there are some core issues that guy needs to work on that his female students have probably picked up on.
I think the hard part is that he may have some valid observations in his class, but HOW you say things DOES matter, and HOW he said it was frustrating to read. And I agree with you – there’s a difference between helping make people comfortable “As a beginner, we’re going to limit you to rolling with upper belts” and “we understand that you may not feel comfortable rolling with men, so just let us know if and when you are.”
One way facilitates growth, the other way may stunt growth.
The teacher’s attitude counts a **LOT**, and women are intuitive and observant. If he’s a sexist pig, we’re going to figure that out, even if he’s trying to moderate that behavior.
My teachers go out of their way to show that they are glad when I walk in the door, and when I’m not there, they go out of their way to let me know I’m missed. The male students make a point of greeting me. I never have to wonder if I’m welcome.
Very cool. I hope they treat everyone like that because it’s a REALLY good thing to adopt for a school! That’s very cool you felt welcome. For me, as a woman and a white gal in Korea and not fluent in Korean, I can never blame any one thing if I don’t fit in. I could easily be excluded because I’m not a dude, not Korean, or don’t speak Korean, so I don’t generally have to directly deal with sexism if it’s not on the Internet. I might wonder, but can never be 100% sure.
I thought your rebuttal was well thought out and well said. I have been doing jiu jitsu a little over 3 years (started doing it at the request of my fiance, who is a purple belt). The first year sucked. I thought about quitting several times. By my fiance just kept telling “it’s hard, but it’s SO worth it”. And when I got my blue belt, it was and IS worth it. But as you said, it really had more to do with being a skinny little white belt rather than a female.
I’m small. And it does make it more difficult to roll with certain people because not only am I small, I’m a female and many guys would rather do the limp noodle or refuse. Sure. Did I become selective about my training partners? You bet. I want to train with someone who isn’t out to hurt me but wants to push me as hard as I want and need to pushed. I don’t need to be coddled. I need to be treated like one of the team.
I’ve recently had to take some time off due to health concerns. Unfortunately there’s always THAT one person, someone who said “aww, she just needs to toughen up.” When guys at gym have taken similar breaks the “one person” responded with “bro, get better soon and get back on the mats.” It makes you feel like “so it’s ok for guys to take breaks because of health concerns, but because I’m a female, I need to ‘toughen up’?”. But when I spoke to my professor that teaches me, he told me “Ok, get healthy, and we’ll see you back on the mat.” EXACTLY the right response. And exactly why he is able to retain both men AND women.
I showed my fiance Keith Owens’ article and he got SO angry. His response was something to effect of “it’s jerks like him that keep women AWAY from jiu jitsu!”
So thank YOU for your response. Thank you for pointing out how hard it is for white belts of BOTH genders to stick it out in jiu jitsu.
I’ve read articles that DID discuss how to deal with female students, or how they dealt with female students, and they didn’t set off my sexism alarms, like this article: Women in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: A Guide for Dudes . I think the question about “how do we retain more women” is absolutely a valid concern for teachers, but when there’s student blaming or defensive reactions it makes it hard to answer that rationally without reacting emotionally.
There’s also a big difference between equality and sameness. I’m NOT a man, nor do I want to be treated exactly like a man. I want to be treated like a teammate. I want to train at a place that is female FRIENDLY, not a hyper-masculine gym that wants to treat me like an MMA fighter.
I’m really glad that you spoke up to your instructor, and I’m really glad he gave you the right sort of response.
Note: I edited your comment to add some line breaks so that it would be easier for others to read.
I thought your rebuttal was well thought out and well said. I have been doing jiu jitsu a little over 3 years (started doing it at the request of my fiance, who is a purple belt). The first year sucked. I thought about quitting several times. By my fiance just kept telling “it’s hard, but it’s SO worth it”. And when I got my blue belt, it was and IS worth it.
But as you said, it really had more to do with being a skinny little white belt rather than a female. I’m small. And it does make it more difficult to roll with certain people because not only am I small, I’m a female and many guys would rather do the limp noodle or refuse. Sure. Did I become selective about my training partners? You bet. I want to train with someone who isn’t out to hurt me but wants to push me as hard as I want and need to pushed. I don’t need to be coddled. I need to be treated like one of the team.
I’ve recently had to take some time off due to health concerns. Unfortunately there’s always THAT one person, someone who said “aww, she just needs to toughen up.” When guys at gym have taken similar breaks the “one person” responded with “bro, get better soon and get back on the mats.” It makes you feel like “so it’s ok for guys to take breaks because of health concerns, but because I’m a female, I need to ‘toughen up’?”. But when I spoke to my professor that teaches me, he told me “Ok, get healthy, and we’ll see you back on the mat.” EXACTLY the right response. And exactly why he is able to retain both men AND women. I showed my fiance Keith Owens’ article and he got SO angry. His response was something to effect of “it’s jerks like him that keep women AWAY from jiu jitsu!”
So thank YOU for your response. Thank you for pointing out how hard it is for white belts of BOTH genders to stick it out in jiu jitsu.
Thanks for your response! Looks like we’re just around the same starting date!
I do think that there ARE hurdles that women in jiu jitsu face – I have a series of articles about it!! However, I think that having watched Keith’s follow up video that it’s more a matter of him not expressing himself terribly well in written form. I absolutely agree that WHAT HE WROTE is full of male privilege and is sexist, however, I don’t necessarily think it means that HE is sexist. I think he had an idea in his head and clumsily wrote it and didn’t get across what he was trying to say. Have you seen the follow up video? He expresses himself much better verbally, and I came across understanding his point of view MUCH better and agreeing with a lot of his points.
Hopefully you can deal with that ONE person – “that guy” by pointing out his male privilege and not letting him get away with it. This can often be done by asking neutral questions, much in the same way that a psychologist may ask, or by commenting neutrally:
“I’m uncomfortable discussing this with anyone but my physician.”
“That’s incredibly insensitive to say about someone.”
“Some things are okay to think and not okay to say. This is one of those things.”
“I only have one body and I’d like to keep rolling for the rest of my life.”
In any case, hopefully you only have one “that guy” in your gym!
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Nicely done. Well said.
Thanks! I appreciate the shout out on your blog!
I tohught this was the weirdest line….”Some of them have gotten pregnant (from their husbands or boyfriends)”….like, does he think he’s doing them a solid by letting us know they’re not getting pregnant from randoms?
Well, come on – we MIGHT have assumed that they didn’t know who the dads were. I kid I kid I kid. I don’t know – maybe he felt like he was putting the blame on the guys rather than the women? If so it was still a really clumsy way to do it.
It feels frustrating that he’s not taking a longer term view to these students. They have not QUIT – they’re taking a BREAK. Encouraging them to come back or bring their kids or something like that is a great way to grow your jiu jitsu family.
I’ve been thinking about this lately too, as with my transition to blue belt seeing my fellow female cohort who also got their blue belt with me.. all quit except me.
I think a big problem I’ve noticed is many of my fellow female bjj’ers don’t speak up to the instructor or partner when something goes wrong, like jerkoff partners.
My school has a good number of women – we got like 10 new women recently who joined mostly through our women’s self defense class, who leaked into the regular white belt BJJ classes. I noticed our instructors are really good at watching the women, who they pair up with, and very supportive.
Though, since my school is heavy self defense based for womens/white belt classes, the transition to blue belt is harsh as it goes right into sport BJJ mostly. It sounds bad, but I can peg whether a white belt female will quit by blue belt or not. Many times I run into the locker room during class to grab my mouthguard/whatever and the white belts there look horrified I’m covered in sweat and breathing heavy and repeatedly ask if I’m okay and make comments how gross sparring looks. Others, the more “scrappy” types, are all pumped and ask questions – and what makes me happy, say that since I’m blue, they can get there too.
One thing I did notice, which was interesting to me, was I figure more women would quit or not go as often due to family stuff. I’ve heard a few women say they wish they could spend more time, but they have kids/ should spend money on their kids instead – but I’ve heard just as many men tell me that too and quit to put their money into putting their children through BJJ classes instead.
I totally hear you – the issue is often that a woman will not want to speak up because she doesn’t want to be viewed as making waves, or that no one will believe her, etc. It’s easier to simply leave. So while his students may never have complained, it may not mean that they have no complaints. There may be fear in complaining.
I do think if you’ve NEVER done a combat sport or sports in general, that the gross factor IS a concern. If you’d talked to me 5 years ago, I can almost guarantee you’d have pegged me as not being able to hack it in jiu jitsu. Especially given my absolute distaste for sweating and movement in general.
“It looks gross, but DAMN it’s awesome. It’s so awesome that it’s WORTH looking gross for.” How about that – there’s a price for admission but it’s worth it.
Don’t totally discount the gals who think it’s icky to begin with! ^_^
It’s worth it to me to have a discussion about how to get more FAMILIES into jiu jitsu.
Absolutely! Families are the way to go – our gym has family memberships at a ridiculously good price – cheaper than the individuals! It encourages people to get those close to them involved, and therefore more likely to stick at it when you have that support. My husband and I, my son and my daughter all train.
I was one of those that never thought it would be for me, but I wanted to do a class to see for myself what it was all about before I let my kids go to class, and got immediately hooked. This approach works – it encourages a great mix of people and getting the whole family involved makes you more likely to stick through those tough patches.
We had 11 girls on the mats (out of about 30) in one class the other week!
Wow! That’s really amazing about the number of women you had on the mats! How exciting!
At our gym we have two kids – around age 10. They’re brother and sister. There are also a handful of high school boys. No families that train together here.
How long have you been doing bjj now and what belt are you? I’m always excited to hear from another woman in the sport!
Still a white belt. Been training for about 8 months now and loving it. Just started training for my first comp in a couple of months. Eek!
Wow, only 2 kids? We have 3 kids classes a week – all of which are packed. I would guess we have about 40 kids training. They are all amazing with one another and the older kids are great mentors for the little ones – and as most of the parents are involved in the club, usually a good social occasion for us too!
AND the kids classes are a pretty even match of boys and girls 😀
Wrote a heated response to this on my own blog but I LOVE that you rewrote his entire article. It shows just how unnecessary and sexist the original text was. Ugh. And the worst part is, he doesn’t seem to have any idea.
Well, to be fair, I rewrote only 3 paragraphs. ^_^ I am very curious as to what his response will be – the “thanks” approach, while more positive than a jerkface defensive reaction, doesn’t exactly encourage much dialog or discussion. That’s too bad. I feel like blogs are opportunities to engage in conversations with people, and if you tell me why you disagree with something in person my response isn’t just “thanks.”
Yeah, maybe he’ll surprise us but until then, I’m not expecting much. Someone quoted part of my reaction post about treating students as students, who are all unique and may or may not be like the previous student who walked through his doors…and he responded with “Interesting thanks!” Hardly an encouraging reply.
Always good to manage expectations.
Advanced apology for unintentionally long reply!
You bring up some great points, both about women in jiu jitsu and teaching in general. I’ve been training jiu jitsu for over 6 years and have just recently begun to get proactive about making our women’s team strong. It’s rewarding but not always easy. That involves not just getting women in the gym but have them want to come back! As a practitioner and not a teacher, I make a special effort to make new women in the gym feel welcome. I let them know about the women’s class (which is not officially on the schedule, we just run through drills in an organized open mat structure) and give them tools for keeping in touch with other women. So sure, I treat them differently. I know what a difference it can make, especially in the beginning, to have at least one other woman in class. I should add that it’s not guaranteed to be better with women around – I might not get along with another female just as likely as not getting along with a male.
I know many women that are upper belts. There are fewer upper belts than white and blue belts, but the same is said for men. And like you said, women stand out so we notice it more when they leave.
I believe that there are times where women should be treated differently and times when they should be treated exactly the same. Sometimes I hesitate to bring up this discussion at all because I want to be seen as a teammate rather than a female teammate. When we put on our gis, everyone is a just body of different size with different strengths and weaknesses. Regardless, there are undeniable differences. What I’ve written below is by no means a comprehensive list of my concerns, but rather a glimpse into what I believe are pertinent topics based on my personal experiences and observations.
Biologically, women tend to be weaker, smaller, more emotional, and have greater flexibility in certain parts of their body – this is in general, there are of course exceptions to some or all of those.
Until a woman learns how to use technique over strength, she’s likely to be overpowered and smashed a lot. The phrase “Congratulations, you weigh a lot more than I do” comes to mind. I think that may be the main deterrent in the beginning that turn women away.
Because women tend to be more emotional, a coach or teammate might not want to give her such a hard time like they would a dude, but I’m on the fence for whether or not this should be the case. This is my personal experience and you may not agree, that’s fine. I like to be and act tough. In the past my coach given me a hard time for mistakes (which I deserved), but he did so in such a manner that…well, let’s just say that most dudes probably wouldn’t have burst into tears after walking out the door. He’s giving me good advise and wants me to be a better jiu jitsu player. I take that advise very seriously and don’t want him to think that just because I’m crying, that I’m not hearing him. Now that we know each better, I don’t need to hide my tears as much as I used to. Looking back, I wouldn’t have wanted him to change his coaching just because I’m a girl that happens to be more emotional than the typical guy (but probably no more emotional than the typical girl). I want the dude to say what he’s gotta say!
Given our different body types, women can be expected to have natural advantages that men won’t. That’s the same idea as small people having different advantages than big people. We used to have a women’s class at my gym and the instructors would often point out certain techniques that work better or worse for certain women. Sometimes boobs get in the way! Women can have more naturally loose hips and can use that to their advantage.
With respect to the individuals that break the trend of acting respectfully, I learned how to stand up for myself by openly communicating with my teammates and instructors. With very few exceptions, I have felt like an equal in every school in which I have trained. These rare exceptions included inappropriate behavior on the parts of both men and women.
I’d like to thank all my coaches and teammates for treating me with respect. I make every effort possible to return that respect through dedication and humility.
Sincerely,
Caitlin
Caitlin – no need to apologize – I really appreciate dialog and thoughtful responses!
I was talking to Meg from Tangled Triangle, and the key is – there ARE differences, and I don’t want to say that I want to be treated like a man. That’s NOT what I want. I’m not a man, nor do I wanted to be treated as such. I don’t want to be told to “man up” or be “just one of the boys.” However, I do want to be treated as a TEAMMATE. Equality does not equal sameness. Unfortunately I have a difficult time talking about this in a clear manner – I KNOW them, I just can’t EXPRESS it clearly. Thankfully it’s a skill that Meg has, and I HOPE she will write this article for my blog!
Getting to your points:
I think that if gyms WANT to have more women that the key is to creating a female friendly ENVIRONMENT, not simply telling her to harden up and be one of the guys and not to change things because “it’s a boy’s club, so deal with it.” For example, I read this article, and it was well written by a male instructor, and didn’t raise any of my OMG SEXIST bells: Women in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: A Guide for Dudes
I was reading Elena Stowell’s book, Flowing with the Go and I loved what one of her coaches said: “It’s okay to cry, just not on the mats.” I think there’s a difference between treating people’s emotions with respect and not. That’s the same for a man OR a woman. If you have an emotional reaction to something, you do need to learn to control it here – whether it’s anger, tears, etc. If you are having an emotional response, please excuse yourself off the mats and come back out composed. Asking someone “Do you you need a moment to get cleaned up” is a great way to deal with that. But yes – be sensitive to the fact that there ARE different emotional needs. Our culture has definitely done its part to divide this by gender – “man up” “don’t cry like a woman” but I know that one of the things I appreciated MOST in my journey in jiu jitsu is that I’m NOT alone in having emotional reactions to things. That when I get scared I DO cry. I remember reading Georgette’s blog and she wrote an article about going in the bathroom and having a cry because she was frustrated. Similarly I told Elena that I really appreciated knowing that these strong women I look up to DO have emotional responses – I’m NOT alone, and it’s NOT weak to cry – it’s natural. But I also think the message that there is an appropriate place/time to have that reaction is good.
I think some of the discussion about how women do jiu jitsu is often more related to size. For example, I was never small, nor was I flexible. 🙁 I wish I were! I was 205 and 5’4″ when I started doing jiu jitsu. Meg is something like 6′ tall! Perhaps we’re outliers, but again – you get small guys in your class and they’ll have the same types of issues. So for me, it’s more about body size/personal strengths than anything else. That for every body type there’s a plus or minus. HOWEVER – I completely agree that some things ARE helpful to mention – just like the boob thing – GAH – I’ve had situations where someone was putting their knee on my rib and moving it up to my armpit and my boob caught and it was really painful.
When things like that happen IN CLASS I will just say “hold on” and readjust. Maybe that’s not “good” jiu jitsu, but I do the same if I’m kneeling on someone’s hair or if fingers are caught in my gi. I’m not trying to be The World Champion – I’m trying to have gym rolls and continue rolling until I die.
I definitely think it ultimately comes down to treating INDIVIDUALS with respect. For example, there are lots of women who are not very competitive, but there are also lots of women who are extremely competitive. There are women who want guys to take it easy on them, and women who want guys to roll as hard as they can. The same can be said about men. But I DO think there ARE differences between men and women. Men don’t generally have a concern about appearing ultra-masculine, or about losing touch with their femininity, or about what the heck to do on your period, or how to deal with big boobs, etc. There’s a reason why I have blog articles called “Women and BJJ.”
I remember the questions I had when I joined, and the concerns I had: How are the women here treated? Are the men really aggressive? Is this dangerous? It’s true that I do go out of my way when women walk in the door – after all, we’re a minority in this sport, and being such a visible minority can be an overwhelming experience – it was a big part of the interview process I had when joining Peace Corps – how would you feel knowing everyone’s watching you, etc. So I reach out to them, let them know the guys are awesome. With ALL new people I always tell them that it’s a tough sport and you’ll suck for a super long time, but not to be discouraged – it’s FUN! and the only expectation people will have for you as a white belt is that you come and try your best and TAP if it hurts! As far as skill, people will expect you to be bad, so the only thing you can do is meet or exceed expectations.
Thank you again so much for putting so much though into your comment!
and make comments how gross sparring looks.
—————–
I wonder how many of the bazillions of women who have been murdered in violent assaults might have saved themselves if they had known thing one about defense. I’m sure they made unsweaty, undisheveled, non-gross corpses.
Seriously? That’s really not classy and totally victim-blamey. 🙁
[…] their two cents at this point, but when I first read the heading to Keith Owen’s post, “Can Women Really Handle Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?” my first reaction was to recall a scene from the movie 300, which I have (painfully) […]
Reblogged this on I Wonder As I Wander and commented:
I LOVE LOVE LOVE everything about this post so I am sharing Julia’s take on this hot topic!!!!
i POSTED A REBLOG ON MY PAGE, I HOPE YOU DON’T MIND, sorry for the caps forgot it was on. if you do mind let me know and i’ll just do a link, but it was so long and I didn’t want to leave anything out. EXCELLENT POST
Thanks. I want to write an article about how to write an article about observations you’ve had in your experience and avoiding sweeping generalizations. I think that most people I know can see the difference between: women always quit jiu jitsu, and 6 of the 7 women who have started at our gym have quit. Hint: it’s about avoiding words like “every” “all” and just saying “women”. I’m not saying that I am perfect all the time, but it’s very different if I’m talking about the Koreans I have observed in my classroom and a sweeping generalization about Koreans.
Out of all the white belts that were white belts when I was a white belt (does that make sense?), only three people remain. Me, one guy, and one girl, and we all made it to purple, although the other two don’t train as often as I do. From the pool of guys that have started with me, lots of whites have quit and a good amount of blues. All dudes.
This whole thing is so silly. I don’t think sticking or not sticking with BJJ, had anything to do with her gender. She stuck with it, because she likes to strangle people. Plain and simple.
Julia, I’d be interested to know, and I think it’s an interesting conversational piece: Some places have women’s only classes and women’s only open mats. Keith mentioned that he wanted to have men’s only classes (which some people said is sexist). Do you think women’s only classes are sexist toward males?
By the way, one of your teammates Alan Kang, visited one of your gyms here in Busan last night. Very nice guy. He also mentioned to me how your instructor pairs you guys up for sparring. He laughed and told me how it makes people feel more comfortable and cuts down on bullying, hahaha.
Hi John – thanks for your comments. Ultimately, no, it’s not sexist, and here’s the short answer:
A woman’s only class does not take away opportunities for men to train. A men’s only class DOES take away opportunities for women to train. A woman’s only class will not hurt the growth of men in jiu jitsu. A men’s only class MAY hurt the growth of females in jiu jitsu. I’ve heard so many men tell women “this is a man’s sport, and if you’re going to be in it, you need to harden the f*** up.” Thanks for making me feel welcome, dudes. /sarcasm (granted, this was online – I’ve never heard anyone say this in real life, THANKFULLY!).
I will expand upon this in a blog post and comment here to let you know when it comes up.
Of course guys are going to tell women that on the internet. Most of the time, it’s completely anonymous, so there are no repurcussions for acting like an ass clown.
I’ve actually had this conversation with a couple of my teammates and my wife over the last week or so.
I actually feel that men’s only classes and women’s only classes are both a bit sexist. What if the guy is really small (like me) and has trouble finding partners his size? What if said person could get a lot out of attending a class comprised of mostly smaller female players, but is excluded because of his gender?
Personally, I don’t care who I roll with (male or female), but I realize that not everyone thinks like me, and some practitioners of both genders may have reasons (completely valid or down right silly) for not feeling comfortable rolling with the opposite sex.
I look forward to reading your thoughts on the subject in your blog entry ^^
Here’s the problem with that: if I am going to a women’s only class and a man wants to come, I really have no idea if he’s going there because he wants to roll with people his size, or if he’s a legitimate creeper. Unfortunately the prospect of a guy trying to get in to a women’s class raises red flags, no matter if he’s an awesome guy or not. Now, sure, the guy could be like Can or like you, but it sets off alarm bells. You can understand that, right?
Honestly, if you wanted to roll with small people, you could try having a “lightweight” class – or an open mat for people under X lbs. Then you could attract men OR women that size.
Regardless – if you read my comments and feel like it’s still not “fair” then honestly and truly you are steeped in privilege. It’s VERY different, and if you can’t see that, then I hope that some day you have an opportunity to empathize.
Part of that privilege is even in your words – “I don’t care who I roll with.” Which means that ultimately this is an intellectual argument for you. It’s not for me. It’s my reality. You have the privilege of being able to argue against it and ultimately have no real consequences. Those arguments DO affect people around you – but most likely not you.
Please read my words again – women only classes CREATE opportunities for women to roll, while NOT taking away opportunities for men to roll. Men’s only classes only serve to take away opportunities from women, an extreme minority in this sport.
The thing is – you say that both genders may have reasons for not feeling comfortable rolling with the opposite sex. However, what your words fail to acknowledge is that a man who feels uncomfortable rolling with women CAN hide. He CAN get through an entire week/month without EVER rolling with a woman, or only doing it once. A woman in your class has to suck it up or NOT roll. Period. Because if she wants to roll she MUST do it with a man.
Can you understand how your privilege may blur your vision of this “fairness” or lack thereof?
I wasn’t really trying to argue a point more than just kind of play Devil’s advocate (yes, a dude trying to join an all female class would be weird). While I don’t agree with everything you said, you make a couple of good points and have given me a couple of things to think about.
Being the smallest guy, and for a very long period the physically least gifted and weakest (not to mention probably the dumbest), I would say “privileged” is the last word I would use to describe me. Collecting toys may qualify me as creepy, though.
Take care.
Aha aha aha! I think we’re operating in different internal dictionaries for the word “privilege” which is what part of the article will address. I will DEFINITELY post a link to the article, which should come out this week or next. I need to DEFINITELY get the tone right so it doesn’t sound like I’m finger pointing or that it sounds like OMG YOU’RE SEXIST! ^_^ Tone and word choice DOES matter.
You can preview SOME of what the article will cover by reading this SUPER awesome article about what privilege is by John Scalzi, which uses a video game analogy:
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/
By the way – I’m curious as to why he laughed when he said that. Did you get the impression that he thought it was smart/dumb/weird? I absolutely LOVE this aspect BECAUSE it makes people feel more comfortable and cuts down on bullying. Sincerely.
No, not at all! He told me that he really likes that about your gym. He chuckled because he was telling me how he gets paired up with lots of different people and that it is interesting.
Even more crazy is that he was doing BJJ back when all my instructors and your instructor were white belts! He also told me that he was an MMA reporter for eight years, so he knows a ton about the development of MMA and BJJ here in Korea. I was going to train and interview him tonight, but he ended up getting a date. Date>BJJ.
Ah! Nam Jeong. Sorry – I didn’t know his English nickname. Yeah, he’s a super cool guy.
I hate to say I’m one of those women that quit. Not because I couldn’t hack it, but because the lack of routine and I was injured from a younger, faster partner.
I have a blue belt in Kickboxing and I’ve played sports all my life, so I’m not ashamed of sweating or being aggressive. But this roll was my last straw. I’m used to rolling with partners that repsect my speed and we both get a good workout. But things started to go downhill in the gym. It seemed that everytime I walked in the door I never knew what I was going to do…I like sticking to somesort of schedule. Then the workouts were just crazy. One time I was so sore that I couldn’t even raise my arms to brush my hair, let alone get my shirt on. And on top of that I was bulking up…which was the LAST thing I wanted to do. I have naturally large arms and it’s hard enough to find shirts…I don’t want to outsize my current shirts. The last thing I wanted to tell my trainer was “Excuse me I really don’t want to do this becuse I’ll turn into a Hulk.” So, I sucked it up. Then things got better we would learn new holds, roll, then he would take me aside and work on my kickboxing (which I needed too).
The final straw when I had to roll with a much younger guy. I’ve rolled with younger guys before, so I said sure. This guy was turbo fast! It was like he was in the octogon. He aggressively tried to wrap his legs around my neck for a choke. Pulling me around like an old sack. I broke it off and I told the trainer that it was way too fast for me. He tells me ” This is how it is in the ring.” I was displeased, but I went against my better judgement and kept going. I ended up coughing a puking from the speed and my arms were tore up from trying not to be jerked around. I was pissed at myself for letting that happen, mad at my trainer for not respecting my limitations, and mad at the kid because he didn’t respect my speed or my level.
Now, I’ve sparred full out with my first trainer doing Hapkido and Kickboxing and even at this gym me speed and level was always respected. But that was a total disrespect that I couldn’t deal with, so I’ve never went back and I’m kinda soured on BJJ and would rather focus on my Kickboxing.
Hi Karlene! It was really nice meeting you today. I’m SO SORRY you had the experience you did! I have had such a wonderful experience here in Korea. If you WERE looking to try it out again, I think you would find a) more consistency – all the John Frankl schools I have visited are run very systematically b) more compassion – other than beginner white belts I’ve not had crazy partners, and if I told my instructor it was too rough he would give a verbal beat down to that person.
I’m always available to go with you if you decide to try it again!
Interesting post. I’m kind of afraid to make any comments that might be misconstrued. I actually wrote and deleted several lines already. 🙂 Also, I might actually run into the author of this post at the gym and have to defend any comments in person…so I guess I’ll go troll the bullshido forums for a while instead…
Oh hi! I know who you are now!
Hrm, I just read Karlene’s comment. While I do agree that there is a certain roughness that you have to get used to in grappling, there’s definitely a line between beneficial roughness that toughens you up and unnecessary roughness that causes injuries and puts people off from training. It sounds to me like you got the latter. I’m curious as to which gym it was at.
Actually, I had a bad experience when I first came to train at the gym I train at now. One of the gym’s tough guys got angry while we were rolling on the first day and hyper-extended my arm way way after I tapped out. I couldn’t train properly for 2 months because of that. Anyways, I finally tapped him out a few days ago and he got really angry and kept physically forcing me to roll, even though I told him I was done. Like grabbing me and pulling me down to the mat as I tried to walk away. The next day I got paired with him and he freaking threw me off the mats backwards into a bunch of students who were sitting there so I just stopped the spar and told him we were done. He was like, why? So I was like “It’s getting dangerous so I’m ending this.” I said it very firmly in front of everybody. It was hilarious because I got like a slow clap from one of the white belts who was watching. Very 80’s. Awesome.
Anyways, I’m glad Karlene left that bad gym. Man, there are some really really bad places to train and your safety and your body are sacred (despite the general custom here in Korea, its kind of a nation of peer pressure).
Even though, I was hurt. I’m pretty much a diplomat when it comes to outing people. Things are tight in this economy and the last thing I want to do is hurt someone’s business.
Now, if the guy was an ass consistently THEN I would put it out there. Karlene
Totally understandable.
Wow – I’m totally curious as to who that is! (Not online, though!)
I’m really really shocked, though, that that sort of thing happened. I’ve never had that experience at a JF gym. I’m so glad that you were very clear with that boundary. I hope that he never did the grabbing you/pulling you down to the mat again. I hope that if he does that you set a clear boundary.
Even with my little 6/7 year olds if the hit me I say firmly “Please don’t do that. I don’t like it.” I do the same with adults. There was one person I met who kept joking with me about something that, for whatever reason, irritated the heck out of me. I finally said “I recognize that you may be trying to bond with me because of this, but it’s eliciting a negative reaction in me. If you would like to continue having a poor reaction from me, you are welcome to continue doing it, but otherwise I would ask you to stop.” He did and things were cool after that.
Oh, also, that guy keeps like rubbing my head when he sees me now. He does it like it’s sort of chummy, like I’m his kid brother or something, but I kind of feel like it’s more of a dominance sort of thing… It’s hard to avoid. Anyone have any advice on how to deal with that?
Ah Steve! I just saw this. Well, there are a lot of things in Korea that could be a dominance thing. I’m not sure how you can specifically deal with it if you’re trying to work within a Korean context.
You can always try being direct – “I’m sorry, I don’t like that. Please stop.” It’s good to remember that you’re not responsible for other people’s emotions. You can be polite, but if he’s embarrassed, then he is. You feel uncomfortable. Does his embarrassment outweigh your discomfort? Again, I’m not Korean, nor did I grow up in Korean context, and I’m totally an outsider, so I may not be the best advice to listen to.
That was soo well written. I’m a 35 year-old female white belt (from Brazil, forgive my english) that has been practicing for seven months. Basically an alien. I know no girl who’s a beginner at Bjj at my age and I basically dont care. I love it because:
1- It’s a superfun martial art and designed to make David (me) beat Gholias the giant (the guys)
2- Yes. 95% guys. They’ve always respected me. My instructor is very careful about pairing girls with beginners, and he’s always paying full attention to avoid anyone from being hurt. There are rules in the mat. They’re respected and it’s a friendly and safe environment.
The downsides? I’m always purple. My hair is a mess. My nails break and I cant use dark polish, its ruined. At my begginer rank, I have a very hard time escaping huge opponents. Some of them forget I’m half their size and crush me. Hard. After your thirties its easier to get hurt and harder to heal.
And this last downside is the only one that really bother me.
How I dealt with it? Strength training! Hate it. But it makes my body strong to practice my beloved bjj!!!
Do women have it easy? No. But Bjj makes me feel strong and balanced. It gives a scape to some of the agressiveness I can’t let loose at work.
I feel welcome and cherished at the mat, even when I’m the only girl. I feel safe. Rules are clear.
So thanks for your reply. I agree my life is dificult because I’m a white belt. And you can be sure as hell I’ll someday be a blue/purple/brown/black one. It will only get harder but… Bring it on!!!
Sabrina! Welcome to the blog! I’m really excited that you joined us. I TOTALLY hear you about body recovery time. It really is awful to walk around with the aches and pains. It’s an addiction, though.
I don’t know if you had a chance to read a few of the latest articles I wrote – one about male privilege, one about advantages that women have in training, and one about the conditions in which I train. I’d be very interested to hear your perspective, especially because you have a cross cultural perspective, which adds to the interesting factor. ^_^
And please don’t fear grammatical mistakes. If it is something that looks like it would cause people to laugh I promise I will fix it. I will not let anyone be rude to you because of grammar or spelling mistakes!
I quit… and found another gym. I won’t let one person’s behavior and attitude keep me from something I love.
At best the biased treatment from my instructor was confusing – does he *like* me? At worst, there were times I felt that he has a visceral hatred for women (the ones he was attracted to, the ones he referred to as “whores,” “sluts,””high maintenance bitches. ” (To me, when I got upset: ” not YOU. YOU are our friend! ” wtf)) In the middle were the many times that I felt that I was more of a mascot than a serious student, that I could never work hard enough to overcome being me.
Despite the fact that I ultimately left, I’m glad I was encouraged to train and to continue past the extreme awkwardness stage. I am also sure that most of the off-putting behavior and talk was meant to be kind and friendly, not to make me feel out of place or special in an uncomfortable way. And most of the time it did feel kind and friendly. However I am happier to be away from it.
Since the original blog has since been taken down, here is the archived version. Thank you for your reflection and many others. This was a great case for my recent refutal essay assignment. http://web.archive.org/web/20130224031138/http://keith-owen.blogspot.ca/2013/02/can-women-really-handle-brazilian-jiu.html