Answer: When you are a 17 year-old girl in Philadelphia at a Catholic high school.
I subscribe to google alerts for “jiu jitsu” and “bjj” which is how the story of Amanda Leve was brought to my attention. The headline was “Ryan girl deserves chance to wrestle.” Amanda is a 17 year-old girl involved in Brazilian jiu jitsu, and she wanted to join her high school wrestling team, but was denied based on her gender. (emphasis mine)
“All school academic, athletic, social, and community service programs serve to provide for intellectual growth and proper Catholic human formation,” Gavin added. “This involves a respect for the differences between females and males. To allow for coeducational participation in wrestling, which involves various levels and types of full body contact, does not meet this standard of respect.” (from “Ryan girl deserves chance to wrestle.”)
To make it even worse, the junior-varsity coach, Vic Stanley, who has coached for more than 40 years, went on to say,
I do not think that it is a good idea for girls to be involved in wrestling with boys,” he said. “I think it is a no-win situation for the boy, because if he wins, oh, you wrestled a girl; if he loses, oh my God.
When adults say these things, children hear it, and these antiquated points of views are propagated. A quick search of Youtube calls videos of girls winning “Girl beating guy in wrestling match hilarious” or “Guy wrestles girl and LOSES.”
Take a break from the negative – here’s a video of Amanda Leve at Grappler’s Quest![youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbxsws74pTE]
The whole situation reminded me of what went down years ago: “Wrestler Joel Northup Forfeits to Female Opponent in Iowa State Championships”
In a statement Northrup wrote, “As a matter of conscience and my faith I do not believe that it is appropriate for a boy to engage a girl in this manner.”
His father explains, “Wrestling is a combat sport and they’re out there and it gets violent at times, and my son doesn’t believe that girls should be engaged in that way,” said Jamie Northrup.
Rather than have one single question, I find myself asking a few questions:
a) What is so different about wrestling and BJJ that girls are not allowed on wrestling teams but allowed to train BJJ? Is it because wrestling is an official team sport?
b) Do people give religion a pass for not allowing boy-girl mixed wrestling/bjj? Should we? I mean – obviously that’s not going to fly in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and you aren’t likely to see Orthodox Jewish Mixed Gender Wrestling Teams any time soon. If we give religion a pass, do we automatically give religious schools a pass then as well?
c) Is there a difference between someone in a religion making a choice not to wrestle mixed-gender and a decision made about an entire team set in a religious school? Ie. a person deciding not to wrestle a girl vs a school not permitting a girl to wrestle?
d) If an organized religion decides that mixed gender isn’t okay, is separate gender okay? What if there simply aren’t enough girls to populate the girl’s team? Then what? Isn’t that what Title IX is for?
e) Does the year make a difference? It’s not, after all, as if most religions go through major changes – so although the year is 2014, most of these religions are operating on Very Old Beliefs.
f) Why is there a belief that it is disrespectful for boys to touch girls in wrestling or jiu jitsu?
Jiu Jiu’s Question: What are your thoughts on these points – or if I’ve missed something, please ask your own question! Please remember to play nice, and err on the side of politeness – religion can be a really heated, sticky debate, and I would like people on both sides to feel comfortable participating. Don’t forget that participating in these discussions helps you on your quest to get those sweet sweet OK! Kimonos spats!
I belong to a minority religion and am the first one to stand for religious freedom- but as always, your freedom ends (or at least it should) at the point where it negatively impacts others around you. If your religion does not allow you to touch women, then in my idea of a just world, you would be unable to participate in BJJ- since there are women training. It’s you who should be excluded, not the women. It’s your religion and your choice. Thus if anyone is going to be negatively impacted by that, it should be you.
Yes. Exactly, one a philosophical level, if you have a belief system that prohibits certain acts, good for you. It’s illogical to and solipsistic to demand others act according to your system. On a social level, there’s various tensions and power dynamics that others have commented on, but this argument cannot be won on the side of sexual discrimination by an appeal to personal logic/philosophy/religion.
In my opinion, you cannot deny a woman grappling for religious purposes. It’s just an excuse. Are you denying her the opportunity because of the physical contact involved? Do you consider it sexual? So is it not sexual with man on man contact? Most religions have something against homosexuality too. Yes there are going to be some people who turn grappling into some sort of sex act. Who’s to say its not being done with man to man grappling?
I think, to address your first question, that in the US (and most of the world), sports are separated by gender. If we made every sport mixed gender, I think we’d end up alienating a lot of girls (especially in non-weight class sports like basketball) and actually reducing the number of girls who can enjoy the benefits of youth sports in the name of equality. Maybe this is a situation where equity is more important than true equality? Just a few points for discussion ^_^
I think that the issue here is that Amanda Leve can clearly hack it. She’s a sick grappler, and would do fine at a wrestling tryout against boys. I think that this should apply to all sports. If a female athlete can hang with the men in a given sport (be it wrestling, basketball, or anything else), then the reasons for excluding her end up being ideological rather than practical.
I have never wrestled, or even roughhoused. I’ve definitely never been involved in BJJ. But if I were to wrestle/roughhouse/engage in BJJ, I would never worry about accidentally grabbing my male opponent’s boobs. Yet that might be a concern if I was wrestling/roughhousing/engaging in BJJ with a female opponent. I honestly don’t know; I don’t know if there are any grappling maneuvers which involve that part of the anatomy. But I do know then when I was still in my awkward teenage boy phase, i might have worried about it.
At the end of the day, i think that it is always OK, for a boy to wrestle with a girl, bu it might be awkward enough for either party that neither are able to commit to it fully.
All kidding aside…in wrestling we joked about a move called a “5 on 2” its exactly what you think it is. It is very legal although not practiced often.
I am one of the only female grapplers in my Dojo, so usually I end up rolling with guys. It would seem awkward but the thing about rolling and especially competing in tournaments is when you are bent on winning/learning/getting better you don’t even notice anything sexual/awkward/embarrassing because you are so focused on winning. I am also a Christian and I sincerely love Jesus, but I don’t think He has a problem with it. Its not as if you even have time to think lustfully because you are so busy trying to submit the other person. And also, in Tournaments/Wrestling Tournaments if a guy is pit against a girl I can bet you fifty dollars the guy/girl is not thinking sexually. He is thinking “I don’t want to lose to a girl.” and the girl is thinking “There is no way I will let myself lose to a guy.” Grappling is a beautiful sport that should not be confined to one gender.
Oooh this makes me soooo mad. Religion is just a copout. I live in an area that is predominantly Catholic, my 14 year old son has wrestled plenty of females. They signed up for the sport and train for it, he could care less whether a win or loss is against a female, that goes for his teammates as well. His coaches embrace females on the team and therefore that attitude is reflected amongst all the wrestlers as well. If a coach feels losing to a girl is a problem, than that is a reflection on him personally and his lack of respect for female athletes. I know for a fact that is not the way most wrestlers themselves view it.
Well said, I hate it when people use religion to as a cop out or hide behind it to further their arguments. But getting back to the topic, I hope that that the gender lines will soon vanish because women have proved beyond a reasonable doubt that they are just as capable as their counter parts.
Oh and the issue of close physical contact, get over it. Nobody during the intensity of a wrestling match is thinking about that. You get past the akwardness your firsr day of wrestling practice.
Exactly. From a guy’s point of view, after you start rolling, gender doesn’t matter. You become just another opponent.
I found the comment section on the Amanda Leve you tube as disturbing as comments on you tube videos about breastfeeding in public where so many people forget that babies are supposed to feed from the breast and shouldn’t have to eat in a dirty bathroom. And of course confuse genitalia with what are essentially sweat glands that evolved into a system for nourishing mammalian infants. Yes, breasts are similar to sweat glands — not organs for “procreation”. And like lips that are also used for eating, breasts can also be used erotically, but the only time I know of when lips are covered is when women wear full burkas. When women are in full burka the eyes become the erotic object.
Sorry for getting side tracked her – back to BJJ.
Most of the men in the dojo where I train seem “mature” and not the least bit bothered. If they are bothered they keep it to themselves well enough that it is not noticable. I was pondering the religious aspect recently because one of the guys, Ali who briefly came to BJJ wouldn’t roll with me because his mom would be upset. I spent many years blending into other cultures where dress and behavior were considerably different from the United States and I worked in a few predominantly Islamic countries (Niger and Indonesia). Ali was probably in his early 20s, so I was so I wasn’t bothered in the least if he didn’t want to roll with someone who reminded him of his mom.
I have some empathy for Ali because of what happened when I was in Atlanta working at Emory U where we ran a training course for the Programme Against Micronutrient Malnutrition. We had an incident the year before where a guy from Zimbabwe was abusive to several women the program. He was a total sleaze, but the women weren’t believed at first because it was attributed to his culture (which was total BS – the guy was a sleaze in any culture). It took a violent outburst in the lab with one of the Indonesian women for the head of the program to send the guy back to ZImbabwe. So they hired a sensitivity trainer for the next year.
One of the teams came straight from Pakistan. Some were from the north where they had ZERO exposure to Western culture. They were met at the airport by the secretary of the program. She always wore miniskirts, low cut tops and high heels and flirted outrageously with everyone. They witnessed women jogging in shorts and sports bras on their way to their living accommodations. Then the next day the men went to their sensitivity session which consisted of a role play about date rape in a bar. The sensitivity trainer had no clue that the date rape thing might have been a bit of a leap for them to comprehend because they had never been to bars before in their life. She had no training whatsoever in how to deal with other cultures. In any case, the guys survived Atlanta. I really enjoyed Wajjid Ali Khan who admitted to me that he first thought Reagan was the devil. Wajjid was then corrupted by a guy from Romania who taught him to drink (he had never touched alcohol before). He spent the first 4 weeks sitting in the back of his classes horribly hung over. Then Wajjid reformed himself, got serious about the program, developed a great plan of action, and by the end had a nice relationship with an American women. Plus he learned how to drink responsibly. I thought he made remarkable progress towards understanding a culture that was radically different from his own.
Which goes to show that one can infiltrate deeply held cultural views and eventually create comfort around dress and behaviors that are completely foreign. And if a guy who was brought up in a culture where he never saw women in anything other than a burka except possibly his mother can survive Atlanta and come to respect women in miniskirts (he really did come to respect Enid, the secretary) — I’m sure others can be gradually transformed as well.
As for the rest of society that has not been living in such circumscribed conditions, it is sad to see that this sort of negative reaction is still so strong. I really think it is important that women and girls are allowed to train and compete with men and boys, especially when there is a dearth of women and girls in a sport. Anna, the 17 year old who rocks all things Martial Arts has no choice but to roll with the men. The only other women that go are Michelle who has been in BJJ for a very long time and is an excellent teacher and Lara who has been going for about a year. Then there’s me – the newbie slug to BJJ. I imagine that for Anna, rolling with me is about like rolling with a giant stuffed animal toy since I hardly know what to do with her. Anna is very serious about BJJ and tournaments. Without training with the guys she would not have been able to progress as far as she has and take home some trophies in BJJ.
In fact, I stayed behind yesterday to watch her trainyesterday for a continual sparring tournament. The 5th degree black belt male instructors treat her very seriously. They paired her up to spar with Syms to train. Syms probably weighs at least 250 — probably more. He is huge. So huge that if I mount him in BJJ, I cannot touch my knees to the floor – its like sitting on a Clydesdale horse – my legs stick out sideways and it is hard to get my knees bent around his body. Syms is totally serious about his Martial Arts and constantly thinks about strategy and he really pushes women to fight hard. Whenever I spar with him in “stand up” he keeps telling me to punch harder and its kind of a relief to go 100%. He’s very encouraging but also intimidating. Anna really picked up some really important techniques fighting against someone much bigger and stronger who is also quick and strategic during that training session. I’m sure she will bring home yet another trophy.
PS. As a woman, I actually do worry about missing and kicking the guys in their sensitive parts. Some of them forget to wear protective gear and one guy was brought to his knees yesterday by one of the teenaged boys. I’m sure he will remember in the future. And yes, breasts are sensitive. I don’t hold the big pads for rear kicks to the ribs in the way the instructors tell us because my arm gets repeatedly jammed against my breast and it feels terrible.
Most of the guys at the place I train don’t wear a cup (there are a couple that do, but they are definitely the minority). They say that the discomfort of wearing a cup is far worse than the discomfort of the rare occasions they get hit. I wonder if the guys who “forget” to wear cups are really forgetting, or if they just find them irritating to wear?
I was told that it was illegal to wear cups during competition…am I a sucker? And Susan, don’t worry about damaging the guys “family jewels,” it happens more than you can imagine. In fact, you are helping them to develop “grappler’s balls.” That’s pretty much when you a man can shake off/ignore the initial pain.
It happens when grappling, it happens when hanging out, shoot it can happen when we are opening a beer. In short, be gentle with us…we are delicate. ;p
I find myself torn here! Just yesterday, I was offended because a big 270 lb guy in Krav didn’t want to partner with me because he didn’t want to punch me hard. So then, I was partnered for my favorite kicking drill with a young teenage boy that could barely hold the pad and that I didn’t want to hurt so I was frustrated!
As a martial artist, I want to be taken seriously and in most cases, feel I am, especially after I have trained with someone. So, I sympathize with Anna’s desire to compete and at the high school level I feel she should be able to. But as a mother of teenagers, I would be offended if my kids were forced to wrestle with the opposite sex in PE. At our public middle school, wrestling is a standard component and it is same sex. My daughter would be uncomfortable wrestling with her male classmates and I would be offended if she were forced to..so is it fair to make boys wrestle with girls if they are uncomfortable as well? Teenagers have so many body issues and can feel so self-conscious.
As far as religion, I am Catholic and don’t know of any restrictions against mixed gender training. I roll with men. My husband is good with it and I believe God is too.
I don’t know much about competitive BJJ or wrestling. How would it be handled in a tournament? Would a girl fight a boy if no other girls in her class showed up or is competition segregated by sex?
And there is still a lot of male ego out there. I watched Ronda Rousey’s latest fight with BJJ guys…every single one of them (down to blue belt) felt they could “take her.” Comment of the night: as Ronda is walking out to the cage ” such a pretty girl, why doesn’t she smile more?”
Good luck, Anna!
“Comment of the night: “Such a pretty girl, why doesn’t she smile more?” Answer: Because she’s f**king serious. lol
In wrestling, females are not seperate. They will always wrestle boys unless it is a female only tournament. They are only divided up by weight, not experience. It’s a different environment than bjj, they compete twice a week so a few matches against a female isn’t a big deal in the scope of the hundreds of matches they face through a season.
Thanks, makes sense. I know girls who have played football and ice hockey for their schools because there is no girls team, I guess Anna’s situation is similar.
I personally think it is incredibly disrespectful not to engage with girls who want to wrestle in that manner. Particularly in competition. I’ve heard a number of people talk about going easy on girls int he gym but you go easy on guys who are smaller, not as physically strong and or as skilled as you all the time. What’s different about a girl in that situation? I have never, ever understood it.
I think this is actually quite a complicated issue, not least because, as Julia points it, its about religion and gender. So I’ve tried to organize my thinking a bit.
On a personal note, I believe very strongly that girls should be able to participate in all the sports boys get to participate in. I remember, like others who’ve commented on this blog, the days when women couldn’t participate in marathons; actually, I was a fan of track and field in the 1960’s, because I grew up close to a college with a very active program, and I remember when Olympic track for women was 1500meters and no more – just a mile! Amazing, given that women are marathoning and triathloning, and so many of us run for leisure and pleasure. And women didn’t throw the hammer or pole vault. Title IX in the US, and similar legislation in other parts of the western world has made a huge difference. So, personally, I’m all for what Anna wants to do.
If it wasn’t for the opportunity to participate with men, I wouldn’t be doing bjj, and I’m grateful for that. Japanese martial arts have had a place for women fighters for a very long time – my original school taught japanese jujitsu and my instructor had video of women teaching and fighting in Japan in the eighties. Japanese women learned self defense in World War II. So, my martial art has its roots in a tradition that has always recognized and supported women’s wish and ability to participate in physical forms of self defense. My experience of the Ronda Rousey match, which I watched with my bjj colleagues, was different from Susan’s – my bjj colleagues, and my instructor, were very respectful of her ability, impressed with her skill, acknowledged her non-smilingness without criticism, and I didn’t hear anyone say they thought they could ‘take her.’ The women who train at our school and other schools around here are supported, encouraged and respected. Doesn’t mean it’s easy. Doesn’t mean I don’t feel left out at times. Doesn’t mean I don’t feel like an idiot with four left limbs that don’t coordinate. Doesn’t mean that I don’t feel like an outlier. I do. But I am also sure that I am part of the school and part of the tradition and culture of bjj.
That doesn’t mean, however, that wrestling in American high schools has the same tradition and culture. And Susan writes quite eloquently about the difficulties of crossing cultures – I’ve experienced the challenges myself as an immigrant to the US, and I’m sure Julia has. So, just because it’s OK in bjj doesn’t mean it’s OK in school wrestling. And that’s what Title IX was for, I think – girls get the same opportunity in athletics, with the boys or not – hurray!
But it’s more complicated, however, because this is a private school. I know quite a bit about Catholic schools – I went to one, and my father was the principal of one. Catholic school buys you an education that’s broader than academics – it buys you a culture and a religion. It’s a powerful, mission driven institution. That’s neither praise nor criticism – it’s just an observation. And there are rules that are based on the principles of the institution. When you go to the school, you don’t pick and choose which of the rules and principles you get to follow – it’s the whole package or none of the package. So, the question is, I think, is the rule about preventing Anna from wrestling with the boys based on sound Catholic educational principles? I am willing to wager that the Catholic educators might spend some time arguing about that one and that there wouldn’t be consensus.
So – we could spend a long time debating, and struggling to understand other people’s points of view. And I’d probably enjoy that. But, I also want Anna to get the chance to be at the peak of her powers as an athlete and maybe she can’t wait for us all to get to the same place and agree with ME (I’m obviously right, and I think she should get to wrestle with the boys). So, remembering all those women who didn’t get to run in marathons for the first eighty years of the Olympics, I’ll advocate for her and girls like her, and, at the same time, encourage her to put her energies elsewhere – leave that narrow minded view about the limits that should be on girls behind her, and strike out towards a world that will accept you and your skills for what they are.
I didn’t mean to imply women aren’t treated well at my gym, I feel very comfortable there and taken seriously, but they were not rooting for Ronda Rousey that fight. I am sure they respect her grappling and judo skills but there seemed to be much more support for Meisha Tate that night for whatever reason.
As far as private religious schools go, I agree with you that it is a complicated issue. Parents and students (hopefully willingly) seek admittance to the school knowing full well the beliefs and culture being represented there and it is then difficult to argue against it. Changes certainly can occur over time but it is more difficult. And what most offends one person about the school’s culture may be the exact reason someone else has sought it out. It would be interesting to know if there is any archdiocesan statement on this and how other Catholic or other private religious – based schools are addressing it.
This is an unfortunate situation that I believe could have been solved by the parents. If wrestling in High school was truly important to their child and they fully supported her, then they should have made sure the school they chose provided a (an inclusive) program. It is that easy.
Title IX only needs to offer an equal number of positions for both men and women. It does not have to be equal within the sport eg football amd cheerleaders
I do believe that a religious reason is an acceptable reason to not grapple with someone. However I would hope that this affects the religious individual moreso then their possible opponent.
And finally, my elite sport background comes from Paralympic swimming (I am a visually impaired athlete). The Paralympic movement has grown exponentially and Canada’s model has been adopted around the world. Our model has been inclusion. I never trained/competed against solely visually impaired athletes. I was fully Integrated into abled bodied sport and it was adapted as neccessary. BJJ has allowed me the same opportunity and one could only hope wrestling would catch on. That being said, the hierarchy of wrestling remains antiquated from the highest level downward eg. Needing to fight their way back into the Olympics. A lot of that had to do with its structure.
This is a community and set of beliefs that dictate that it is not appropriate to hug members of the opposite sex outside your family, for fear of incidental sexual contact. Look up the “Christian Side Hug” to see what I mean.
These same people hold to the “men are protectors, women need to be protected” viewpoint. Women may be trained to shoot, if no man is around to do the shooting for them, but not grapple.
Aside from appearances and allowances, there is a lack of interest to overcome. In some communities, there aren’t enough boys to fill out a wrestling team, let alone enough girls to fill out a separate team.
Push for co-ed representation in team sports first, where success from players of both genders will contribute to group success, then let the conversation come to individual male-focused sports like wrestling.
you made me go down the rabbithole that is “christian side hug”…. meeaaan steve.
I have been training in BJJ for more than a decade. I’ve trained with hundreds of different training partners. Some men and some women. In my sport if you are lucky enough to get a good training partner you don’t tend to worry about if they pee standing up or sitting. You are just grateful for the opportunity. It is almost always the case that women who stick it out and make it to the upper colored belts in BJJ are always highly technical and the best training partners. They have to be technical because they are often giving up a huge size and strength advantage. Because of this I can say without a doubt that my best training partners at the gym are mostly women. Anyone who is lucky enough to train at a gym with a large female population will tell you how much they improve the vibe of the gym. I wouldn’t have it any other way.
My thoughts on question a:
I know it varies by school, but BJJ does seem more tolerant of intersex sparring that wrestling is. I think this is because true Gracie jiu jitsu is about surviving an attack against a bigger, stronger opponent. If women are only allowed to spar with other women, it does them a disservice, from a self defense perspective. Another fundamental difference in the 2 sports is the existence of the “absolute” or “open weight class” division in BJJ competition, but not in wrestling. Within a weight class, size and strength certainly play a role in competition, but people get excited when a small person beats someone much bigger. It proves that jiu jitsu works and that skill is more important than size and strength. Wrestling has no such division – competitors only compete against others in their weight class. Strength, speed, and explosiveness play a bigger role in wrestling than BJJ.
In BJJ, people get excited when women beat bigger or stronger men because it proves that jiu jitsu works. Wrestling does not have the same focus on executing techniques against folks who are bigger and stronger, which may explain why wrestling is less accepting of males sparring with females.
I have zero sympathy for anyone who refuses to roll or wrestle with girls/women. There is no legitimate reason for high schools to exclude girls from the team beyond sexism. And if you’re only acting sexist because you think your religious beliefs tell you to, then your religious beliefs are wrong. You don’t get a get out of jail free card for being sexist (or homophobic for that matter) because it’s your religion.
It’s very simple. Girls are not delicate little flowers that will break into pieces if they ever wrestle a boy. Boys (and girls) are perfectly capable of focusing on the sport and not get distracted by being in close contact with the opposite gender. There are no legitimate reasons to ban intergender wrestling/rolling.
I agree, with the exception of the religion part. Actually, I’m torn with the religion thing. If an adult doesn’t want to do something because it’s “against their religion”, and that choice won’t harm anyone else, then that’s fine – they’re only depriving themselves. However, most children don’t get to choose what kind of religious environment they’re raised in. I would hate to be a 15 year old that was aware of how the rest of the world lived and had to follow a bunch of rules I disagreed with just because my parents subscribed to a specific religion.
When it comes to gender, my opinion is that everything should be merit only. I’ve never understood why physically demanding jobs don’t just have one test “Carry X weight Y meters in Z time” and you pass or fail. No different requirements for different ages or genders, just pick the best people for the job no matter who, what or how old they are.
As an educator who’s been part of the faculty atheletic committee, I would venture to say that this is a mixture of conservative patriarchal discrimination and a cover-your-butt legalistic and public relations strategy. So much of athletic decisions made has little to do with the sport or the athlete themselves.
In the grand scheme of things, women have made great strides in changing minds and blurring the lines set by society. This discussion proves that women are still making strides and changing minds. With that said, it’s going to take some people longer than others to accept the fact that women can do things just as well as men.
Many layers to this one. First, the schools in question are private, they may set their own policies. It is the parents’ choice to send their child to this school, I agree with the commenters who have indicated that the inability of the young woman to be on her school’s team in this particular instance is her parents deciding that the overall benefits of attending that private school outweigh her inability to participate in one school sport throughout the school year.
Regarding the male wrestler who forfeited to a female because of his school’s policy about no intergender wrestling, well, it must have sucked for him to be put in that situation, losing a competition where he may have won vs. possibly being expelled from his school. However, I think his coach’s comments are rather chauvinistic and that the coach seems to think that when it comes down to girls or boys being forced to sacrifice, it should be the girls by default. This I do not agree with. If he had stopped at just saying that the current situation sucks, that I could agree with, but not the too bad for the girl if it means the boy gets to play.
It is ironic that someone mentioned possible homoerotic contact being had by same sex wrestlers, as I’ve been researching styles that I might want to also learn after much more time boxing to complement the striking skills and so far not one adult Western wrestling group that I have found remotely close to where I live is something other than a gay wrestling club.
Regarding the individual student’s opportunity cost of a college scholarship, this is as much a non-issue as it is for the homeschool community as such scholarships are very rare.
It is good that the public school competitions are becoming more and more inclusive, but at the same time, it must be respected that private institutions have the right to set their own policy which may be different than the public side. This is a good conversation to have [this post and associated comments], but in this specific case [the article referenced in the OP], there is nothing to see here.
[…] BJJ Heroes: Rockson Gracie Tap Out 101: Straight Armlock From Crucifix Tattooed Chimp: How And Why I Promote No Holds Barred: Qin Yunquan On Her Catch Wrestling, BJJ, And Vacation In The U.S. Georgette Oden: More Of Nick Schultz’s Opinions On Tonight’s Podcast Jiu Jiu: BJJ Women: When Is It Not Okay For Girls To Wrestle With Boys? […]
Well, this seems much ado about nothing…I am guessing, but I suspect the student in the article could wrestle as an independent and probably train at a (gasp) public school. More research required for me…
Everyone must make choices. Maybe at the public school there’s no ___, or maybe the ____ program is very poor, or maybe she was bullied by wild lions. (I love random maybe sentences)
I believe that some of these people just using their religion as a cover up for their insecurities. To males in High School/Collegiate sports (especially High School), status is everything and as you stated JiuJiu, they look at it as “losing to a girl” instead of just losing. For true competitors losing is tough but you should be able to let go of your ego and just have fun!
I have mixed feelings about this. I participate in BJJ and have had very few issues with my male training partners. Some guys do not want to be my partner, and I just move on to the next. Chances are that they are insecure about looking bad because they get beaten by a girl! 🙂 On the other side of the issue, my son is 13 and wrestles for his school. The problems come in with the maturity levels and age. My son is afraid to grab a girl because he is 13 and immature. Guys in my class will put a knee in my chest without worrying because we are adults and can differentiate between a sexual touch and a “business” touch. I think it is a very difficult position to put an adolescent boy in.
The only question I have here is what if you went to a religious school. If that religion up holds that genders are not equal in all things – this is not my belief but for the sake of the question – then is it no the right of the school to follow their religion? Just because it is not a societal norm to view genders in this way does not mean it shouldn’t be allowed. I attend a uniting church and find myself growing more disappointed as we are forced to get rid of our own religious ceremonies. If you send your child to a school which outlines that it follows a belief in which there are certain limitations placed upon genders is it not then the schools right to enforce it?
I spent my teens being the only girl in my judo club. I spent all my evenings and weekends training with boys and men. It’s now been more than 10 years since I left and I can say that I wasn’t traumatised by training with boys and none of the guys were scarred from occasionally losing to a girl.
I saw this commercial and immediately thought of this discussion. Clear which side Powerade supports. http://youtu.be/ywfIREWf6Bw
This is what i thought of lol (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV12k6k9W4Q)
First of all – this is my first comment on your awesome blog, so – “hi!”
From my very own personal perspective there is nothing wrong with rolling with the opposite gender/sex, so I cannot understand (in the meaning: ‘accept’) all these arguments referring to religion, gender roles or honor etc. On the other hand I can “understand” (in the meaing: “try to understand”) that someone due to some reasons (e.g. religious) does not want to roll with a woman/girl (althoug as I said I do not agree with it).
Please, note also that in case of male teenagers peer group it may really be a problem for a boy to lose to a girl – it may weaken his position in the group (and again – I do not think it is right, but I am afraid this is how it goes). So no wonder the coach does not want to put his boy in such a risky situation.
The only problem I have with rolling with women is of an “aesthetic” (let’s call it so) nature – I am afraid that for them it is not a great pleasure to roll with a sweaty guy in soaking gi 🙂
(sorry about my English, it’s not my mother tongue.
Regards
Hi there! Thanks for your perspective. Out of curiosity, what is your native language?
I know – there’s a lot of weirdness for teenagers all around – it’s just an awkward age. I don’t think there are perfect answers. I do enjoy the discussion surrounding it, though.
Hi JiuJiu! Thanks for a reply. I am Polish. Regards, wulf.
I don’t see the issue with women competing with men in grappling of any sorts.
well i understand training for all possible senarios (rape,forced,abuse..).
My girl and love of almost 20yrs discovered or was found by karate about 4 yrs ago and her interest has steadily grown, to culture studies and philso/lang. she was found!! I have always supported all of her interests and ventures. though i’ve always felt she had’nt found her calling ,till karate. i’ve been a musician since i was a young boy and have always known this.
it was’nt until i’d seen the struggle of others to find there passions was i even aware of this. I have simply just known what i wanted to do. hence my Joy… To see her inspiration grow.. of course along with her studies came networking and seeking others with the same interest levels, all this i completely understand and fully support. like some of the other postings, she is one of only a few females in her club and area so she began spending more and more time with male instructors and teammates. when i first heard the terms grappling and dark ally training it seemed a logical step to me. although i could’nt help seeing the obvious sexual connotations, i keep this to myself, as not to taint her with my untrained overtones.
She took to one black-belt sinsei in particular, sharing thoughts and messages, also traveling solo with him to dojos as well as overnight tournaments. again i understood this is a progression and was reassured by our discussions of his honorable intentions (after all he trains his own club and must have traveled a similar path becoming a b-belt and teacher.
the last tournament was held two states away and she shared the drive with several other senseis from dojos across the nation who would be giving seminares as well as competing. to save money on boarding they all shared the costs and booked an adjoining hotel room. after the first night of grapple/wrestle katas they had picked up a few more traveller trainers who all offered to spend the night on the floor giving her more privacy and the bed.after long discussions of the days mixed fighting one by one they retired, not knowing the sleeping arrangements and she being the only non black-belt she felt they should have the discussion. Next the compromise. same bed/ separate sides. next relaxed clothing options.yes, you already know the night was spent by the remaining “masters” and her in bed “grappling” and erotic mixed wrestling.
(i cant imagine the other teachers unaware of the goings on, seems being aware of one surroundings should be lesson 101? even I see this). All this was revealed to me by my heart from the start, and only just days ago by her. i dont know where to go with this anymore.:(.. but it happened and now you know.. please any comments and/or thoughts will infinitely help my world..
Hi Dlang, first, thanks for writing. What is your first language? I fixed up the writing because it was difficult to read. I added paragraphs and fixed some spelling.
This sounds more like a relationship issue than a martial arts issue to me.
Your girlfriend is 19 years old. This means that she is responsible for her choices, but it doesn’t mean she is making the best choices. Second, it’s possible her instructors are taking advantage of her. Third, it’s also possible that it’s welcome on her end.
I have shared a bed with people platonically (non-romantically) before. I was single at the time, though.
It sounds like you need to have a boundary discussion with her. What are you or are you not comfortable with. What is she comfortable with or not? You must agree on these boundaries. You can state your concern for the situation. Then she has three choices – she can accept, reject, or walk away. And you must do the same with her reaction. Can you deal with it, compromise on it, or perhaps you must walk away.
I can suggest a very good book about this: NonViolent Communication. It’s wonderful for talking about uncomfortable points in relationships. Any relationship!
I can also suggest that your girlfriend read the book The Gift of Fear, by Gavin deBecker. It’s about spotting dangerous behaviors. She needs to figure out what her boundaries are and to set them. She needs to say “I’m not comfortable” or “This is not cool.” Not you. You cannot set them for her. You CAN, however, tell her what you are comfortable with – and request from her, not demand.
Good luck to you!