After my article about Male Privilege in Jiu Jitsu, some folks said they’d wished I’d “balanced” it by presenting ways in which women had privilege.
An aside about the term “privilege.” It’s not the “normal” meaning, just as “shrimp” and “roll” have very different meanings in jiu jitsu. Privilege is what people would call “normal.” In other words, dudes have a relatively “normal” experience in bjj.
I mention this because I CANNOT use the term “privilege” when discussing advantages for women in jiu jitsu. We do not have “female privilege” in jiu jitsu. Please don’t debate that with me or on this blog. Instead, please read further down about the actual subject matter – what advantages we have.
while men have what’s called male privilege that doesn’t mean that there must logically be a “female privilege” counterpart. This is because, although many strides towards equality have been made over the years, women as a class have not yet leveled the playing field, much less been put in a position of power and authority equivalent to that which grants institutional power to men as a class. – FinallyFeminism101.
However, women can and do have advantages in their training that most men do not. I turned over to Jiu Jitsu Forums and asked the members what advantages they felt that women in our sport have. Feel free to add your own to this list. No, it doesn’t make the playing field “normal” or “balanced,” but it’s definitely not all “doom and gloom” as one person called it.
1. Women can choose to be part of gender segregated events (classes, camps, seminars, open mats) without negative backlash from the jiu jitsu community.
2. For better or worse, women are more likely to be noticed or remembered by their instructors or teammates, even as a first day white belt.
3. Women generally have less pressure to spar or to compete than their male counterparts.
4. If a woman injures a male teammate she will generally take less negativity from teammates than if the opposite situation occurred.
5. Women are sometimes given discounts at jiu jitsu gyms.
6. Women are often sought out after by jiu jitsu gyms.
7. Women grapplers will often be sought after by other women grapplers, and there is often an instant comraderie based on the fact that they’re women in bjj.
8. Women are often given special treatment at their gyms when they start, some being exclusively paired with upper belts or not required to roll.
9. There is more room to make a name for themselves at higher levels because of the low number of women in the sport.
Seriously – is there anyone in jiu jitsu who does NOT know the name Kyra Gracie?
10. Tournament brackets are often a lot shallower. It’s not unusual to be one of only two or three in your bracket, so no matter how bad you suck, you can still medal. (10 black belt women competed in Abu Dhabi as opposed to 44 men)
11. Women can visit a new club without fear of being “taught a lesson” because in general women grapplers are not seen as a threat the way a man might be.
12. Small and “regular sized” women who do make it to black belt will often be required to be more technical than their male counterparts because they cannot rely on strength to help them get the technique.
Although not all have specifically applied to me, many have. For example, from white belt all the way up to my current 3-stripe blue belt, I am usually paired with the highest ranked male. (This COULD also be due to my not speaking Korean, so I can’t be totally sure what the reason is). My gym used to give a discount to women. As a woman, I was NEVER a nameless white belt – I was always highly memorable.
I’m curious as to if there is anything you would add to this list, or which of these have you experienced (either you personally or someone at your gym). A reminder: although these are privileges that women have, please don’t debate if it should be considered “female privilege.” To be honest, I don’t really care if people think it should be called that or not, and that’s not what this article’s about.
Gym discounts, waived comp entry fees to encourage more women to enter, female BJJ camps and classes. All these initiatives I love as they get more girls on the mat. As Sophia McDermott Drysdale said at her seminar today, let’s face it we’re participating in a man’s sport.
I’ve heard this called benevolent sexism, with the goal in mind to create an environment more attractive to women.
I think if a gym has discounts it should be for the first X months. It gives her time to try it out and then if she loves it and renews, she pays full price.
Most definitely – I have only ever seen gym discounts for women for a limited time ie. a week or month of a ladies only promotion.
At the lower levels, what you said is true about not being taught a lesson, but as a higher-ranked woman, I’ve had the opposite experience: new guys come at me HARD, often to prove a point. If I go to a new gym or spar in a new place, I am an anomaly, and men come at me with the mindset of “here is a brown belt that I can ‘win’ against.” So while women may not ever be “taught a lesson” in the same way men are, upper-belt women definitely have a target on their backs, albeit in a different way.
I can totally see that being something that gets worse and worse the ‘darker’ your belt gets too. Ugh.
Ugh, that sucks. I posted something about feeling like as a blue belt white belt guys may potentially try to go harder to get a “win” against a higher belt. But as a brown belt who has visited several gyms you definitely have experience to back up what you’re talking about.
A purple belt girl I know said a similar thing – to the point where she’ll now never submit a guy on their first ever roll together, because many react by going all out aggressive in the next round.
I’m way too proud for that, haha. I pay for it sometimes though 😛
I just gotta say real quick, that I am insanely jealous. Caio Terra is probably my favorite grappler. I failed to see until just now that you went to one of his seminars Did you blog about it?! How did I miss it?!!
…anyway.. /fangirl off
I was talking to a teammate of mine this morning, who is training for a competition right now. He is one of the biggest, strongest guys on our team. He is also one of the most technical purple belts we have. But anyway, being that is he what a lot of people would consider ideal for a contact sport or martial art, he has issues that I will NEVER have. It can hard for him to really be challenged in training, or to really pushed on the mat. I am not a small woman, but even so, every last man on my team is stronger than I am. I can be over powered by guys who I know I am more technical than. I assume this will be an issue I face the duration of my BJJ training. … and I don’t mind AT ALL. Being that i am smaller and weaker than 95% of my team, almost everyone can challenge me, in different ways of course, but I am almost ever faced with the dilemma of being bigger, stronger and better. And yes, I know you can make grapples with people you have every advantage over still worth while (And my aforementioned teammate does.) But I think being smaller and weaker than almost everyone else has made me a better grappler.
And semi related, I’ve heard a couple of times that big strong guys get stuck at the threshold of good white belt/blue belt because strength does work for them, and so they use, it not realizing they are hindering their own technical advancement and belt promotion. I don’t imagine a woman ever running into an issue like that.
… and no, I don’t know how I made this such a long comment. I blame coffee.
Yay! I love coffee and I love long comments!
I agree – if you are constantly playing against better people, you become better. The same is in board games.
However, there are very large women in our sport. Megan from Tangled Triangle is…6 foot tall? She definitely would outweigh most of the guys at my gym here in Korea.
I posted one picture of me with Caio in the PSA one changing room, but I didn’t formally write about the seminar. There were some issues I had with it and I’ve been sitting on it trying to think of how to write it.
I will be curious to hear about your experience. And the fact that is recent may be why I missed your post. I haven’t been able to read much in the way of blogs lately.
Megan is 6 pretty tall, and I am sure pretty strong for a woman too, but I do think, at least in my experience, that even the guys that I am bigger then, are still MUCH stronger than I am, and I consider myself to be a strong woman.. Men are just stronger than we are, and not by a small amount. We have a guy on our team who is for all intents and purposes, tiny. For a woman he’d even be considered small.. maybe 115 pounds at around my height, (5’9) He’s just real lanky and thin… Still, way stronger than I am. lol
Definitely second (third?) the advantage Stephanie mentioned… I don’t imagine that I’m EVER going to struggle finding partners that challenge me. That is incredibly frustrating sometimes – I had to realize, after awhile, that it will take a LONG time before I start getting things to work consistently. And that I will ALWAYS be much smaller and weaker than my partners. Which is frustrating.
But also freeing. I’m always improving. I’m always really challenged. I never have to moderate my strength or power, as my partners do. I feel like a huge reason why I love BJJ/Judo is because I am So Very Challenged… All The Time. Because I’m a woman. And relatively small.
Also – I’m not sure its an advantage, but – when I get something to work (you know, once a month) – I get such sincere support and enthusiastic praise from my partners and instructors. Because I struggle to get my techniques to work (and I’m The Girl), I get praised and cheered on for ALL of my successes. I’m sure the men don’t – they have to work harder for praise. Not sure that’s an advantage or not though – just how it is.
Excellent point! You’re right – the larger guys and the higher belts at my gym definitely have a tougher time finding a challenging partner. Not something I think I’ll ever really stop having. hehe.
I am curious about teaching styles of men vs women. Are women more quick to praise? Do they dole out praise more often to male or female students? What about male teachers? It would be a very interesting thing to watch for.
I think in general, anyone who is struggling and FINALLY overcomes it has support of people around them rather than the person who gets it every time on the first time.
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Newbies target women and smaller or older men as higher belts they can hope to beat. I did it when I was a white belt, too.
Not lacking for challenging training partners is the biggest advantage I experience as a woman in bjj. I feel obliged to get on my soapbox here and say that so many ladies sell themselves short by claiming that All men will Always be stronger than we are. If you are a large woman, the reason small men are Way, Way stronger than you is they weight train for strength and you don’t. Do the math. A 115 lb man with 3% body fat only has 13 lbs more muscle than a 150 lb woman who is 34% body fat, which I am guessing is close to my own body composition. I am on a level playing field with men I have trained with who are smaller than me, and am stronger than at least two. I cannot imagine how a woman bigger and leaner than me, without any heath conditions that prevent her from weight training, can be significantly weaker than a man this small unless he weight trains for strength and she does not. If a small man wants to get stronger than a slightly bigger man who weight trains to feel and look good, like most men do, he can make up that strength difference Easily by training to improve function. It’s not as easy for a woman, but it’s not F-ing impossible either. You can get into the same strength ballpark with these guys in a few months or maybe a year or two if you start from a low level, but only if you do something about it. If lifting doesn’t interest you, that little guy isn’t stronger than you because he’s a man and you’re a woman. He’s stronger than you because he’s a man and you don’t care enough to get strong or wrongly think it’s futile to try.
Please get over this danged “I’m small and weak” wall some of you build for yourselves! Enough already! You can be stronger than you think. Women were not made to be weak. http://www.flickr.com/photos/lindadevolder/5168451939/
Hahahahahahaha I think perhaps you’re addressing the women you know personally? I know I’ve never ever described myself as weak, and I’ve almost never been the smallest. I sincerely love weight training, and if I get more time in my schedule it’s something I want to pick back up. Working full time and training jiu jitsu – I don’t have the emotional energy to train in two disciplines. If I were working part time I would.
I wonder if it’s not setting up an emotional crutch to allow themselves to be okay with being the Amazingly Bad At Jiu Jitsu Gal. They’re not emotionally invested in being The Best, and so if they have something concrete they can point at, it may make them feel better. Is it bad if people sell themselves short? Does it ultimately matter? I’m honestly curious. I’m absolutely certain I sell myself short, but even so, I don’t really care. I don’t go into class with a “take names and kick butts” attitude. I don’t have a “winner’s” mentality – I have more of a “survivor’s” mentality.
Actually, I was addressing the 5’9″ and strong Stephanie who commented above, and other women who see jiu jitsu as a transformative pastime, yet persist in being blind to their physical capability for change when it comes to strength. Perhaps being surrounded by so many athletic men on the mats reinforces the perception that the strength gap between men and women is vast.
Yes, of course it matters if you sell yourself short! I am suggesting that a person should know herself. How one uses one’s capabilities is another matter.
I’ve been working to not let my “I’m smaller and weaker” mindset be my default excuse – but it definitely is. Putting aside the fact that my school doesn’t have 115lb men (there ARE 115lb men?!) – the smallest man has thirty or forty pounds and four inches on me – I DO use it as a crutch. I work to get stronger, but my default brain-spasm is “I suck because I’m weak,” rather than “I suck because I need to work on this.” The smallest guy and I partner very well because his weight is still in a range I can easily handle. He’s mush stronger than I am, but it doesn’t mean he’s so strong I’m defenseless. Against someone of a similar size, whatever their gender, I probably couldn’t use that excuse at all. The few times I’ve rolled with women – even larger, but less athletic women – I’ve been able to realize Hey, I’m Strong. But I should stop using it as an excuse anyway… it doesn’t help me.
I keep hoping for a growth-spurt. I hear you can have them in your twenties, right?
The only thing that bothers me about what you say is the idea (maybe I read you wrong? I know you were talking about larger women vs. smaller men) that the only thing holding me back from taking on these guys is that I’m not working hard enough to get strong. Putting aside whether I want to do that – I doubt I would ever have comparable strength to a man, unless he was my size or smaller and pure fat, and I was mostly muscle. I have yet to meet that man. And so I work to get stronger, to have LESS of a disadvantage… and I keep the understanding that I’m much weaker than they are. Though I’m totally “Amazingly Bad At Jiu Jitsu Gal” and should have that stitched on my gi… and I don’t think I’m selling myself short.
No, I didn’t mean to imply that, only to say it’s a factor that’s more controllable than a lot of people think. It has many significant health benefits outside bjj, so I think it’s important. Ironically, the two female training partners who stick out in my memory as being particularly strong are very small, 115 and 105 lbs or so. I probably noticed their strength because they were so small. The average or large sized girls, in other words the ones bigger than me– many of them were not as strong, certainly not as strong proportionally. If these tiny girls were bigger, they would be monster bjj players. As it was, one “lost” rolls all the time (she was a white belt when I trained with her, too), and the other was really freaking sneaky with submissions and humbled much larger men that way.
I think I grew 1/2″ in my twenties. I was actually really excited about that 🙂
+5 for women doing strength training! My plan is that once I retire, I will basically train jiu jitsu and become a competitive weight lifter. I figure it should be a breeze to make a name for myself in the old lady division! Huzzah!
I wanted to say that I wish for #5! Boooo!
I have noticed teammates are more patient with me – if I’m not getting something, I can ask for help (or even just simply stare at the nearest pair drilling) and most guys are more than happy to help me and make sure I get something right – or flag down an instructor for me.
I also find I’m complimented and encouraged more, sometimes more than I deserve. It’s very nice, but sometimes it’s a little much.
[…] Jiu wrote another post regarding the other side of the gender issue when it comes to women in jiu jitsu. It’s an interesting read, I read through her list of advantages. While I agree some of them […]
I’m finding what everyone has to say very interesting. Most of this stuff, I never consider very closely. Where I train, I get a lot of respect. Not just because Robson expects us to treat each other like family. I work harder than the guys, I train more, I learn fast and I’m always willing to help out in other classes, because I love Jiu-Jitsu. I think the only time Robson has ever treated me like “the girl”, is one time during warm up drills, he was my partner (closest in weight) and didn’t make me carry him down the mat and back lol. Other than that, any easy rolls with him, have more to do with my being a relative newbie, than because I’m female. Mostly though, I’m surrounded by an awesome bunch of guys, with literal world class instruction, the guys don’t take it easy on me (at my request), which pushes me constantly to work harder, do better, and find a way to be the most difficult low belt they know (I’m a green belt, which is how the Nova Uniao belt system works, white to green, green to blue.) I just… train. I don’t care if my “brothers” smash my face with awesome shoulder pressure, or finally catch me in a submission, I just make them teach me their tricks and any bruises are just par for the course. I mean, sure I have days where I get frustrated or wonder if I’m really any good at all but… I think that’s pretty normal for anyone in this sport. I find it sort of hard to relate to most of what you’re all saying, and yet at the same time, I do get it. There are so many little things that seem different for me, but I am coming to understand that my experience is not the norm, and that even other women who come to the gym, may not have the same experience I do. So thanks for putting it out there, helping us all to see and possibly understand better, different points of view.
Just for reference, I’m 5′ and currently 135 lbs. I’m 31 years old. So I’m not anything particularly special, just freakishly strong and not bothered by getting rough with the guys.
Yay! Another 30-something woman in jiu jitsu! ^_^ Yeah – I don’t mind going stronger with the guys. And yeah – we have a new-to-us brown belt who gives back as hard as I give. His knee/forearm on chest/belly literally take my breath away. ^_^
I’m so glad you have found this blog helpful and that it’s helped give you a wider view of what women’s training in our sport is like! It’s sometimes really hard to imagine when you’re only one of 2-3 women at a gym!
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